What's unique about Arizona legally regarding estate planning and why do you think it matters?

The most unique aspect of estate planning in Arizona is that, unlike every other state, we have a unique power of attorney that focuses exclusively on mental health. With that comes mental health issues like depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and even dementia and Alzheimer's. In some cases, they've utilized that document to make decisions for people who are incapacitated and have those issues occur.

It's usually incorporated into a regular healthcare power of attorney in other states. In Arizona, it's something that we do separately. As I meet with people who progress through life, no one ever plans, anticipates, or even hopes to have mental health or psychiatric issues occur, but they happen all the time.

As people become incapacitated, it’s common for them to be diagnosed with anxiety and severe depression. Because we have such a high volume of retirees in Arizona, we have a high volume of these cases.

I get calls from people or their children who are saying, “Hey, my dad is going in and out of moments of being lucid. The doctor is saying we still have time to get this power of attorney set up or else we're going to have to get a guardianship.” It's a great way to conserve resources in planning so they don't get split up in guardianship hearings.

Mental health is such a serious issue, now more than ever. To leave it to chance for someone to be able to make those decisions for you regarding your mental health is extremely dangerous.

What do you like best about clients in your community?

I love the connections I make as an estate planning attorney with the local community. You get to make a lot of friends.

Unlike a lot of other attorneys, where you're responding to problems that have already existed and a lot of people are unhappy about being in this situation, estate planning proactively solves problems. This helps me make a great connection with my clients.

My clients view me as a resource. They view me as an investment. They’re saving money. They’re investing today to avoid problems in the future. A lot of people are very appreciative of the work, the experience, and the knowledge that I have and that Oath can bring to them.

Why is Oath right for your clients?

It goes back to what impressed me the most when I started working with Oath almost three years ago: we believe that every adult needs to have an estate plan in place. We work with different economic and familial backgrounds.

I am proud of everyone that I work with at my firm. We truly believe that estate planning is not just for the ultra-wealthy. It's for anyone who's worked hard for anything during their life and wants to pass that on to someone else. We offer a lot of affordable ways to finance and achieve those estate planning goals.

A lot of attorneys practice multiple fields of law. However, at Oath, we focus exclusively on the area of estate and financial planning and provide a lot more highly customized plans to the people that we work with. We're able to provide expertise that not every attorney can.

What story do you tell most at your workshops?

I make sure that people understand the stakes of having a poorly crafted estate plan. Some people think that having a bad estate plan means their kids end up in court for a year or two, or they think their kids are going to spend a little extra money. But the stakes are a lot higher than that.‍

‍When I was about 10, my grandparents both passed away and there was a lot of confusion in their estate plan. A lot of their kids didn't agree with the estate plan that my grandparents had in place. They ended up being involved in some pretty heavy and expensive litigation. That was 23 years ago. It caused some estrangement in my family that we’re still experiencing today.‍

‍By the time I get to the end of my workshop, I can confidently tell every person in that room that they know more about me than my estranged family member does. It's been 23 years since I've ever talked to her. I'm a complete stranger to this woman who technically and legally is considered family.

‍‍Those are the stakes with a poorly drafted estate plan. When you have a poorly drafted estate plan, you run the risk that family members will stop talking to each other. It affects generations to come. The price of not having a well-drafted estate plan is too high.

What do you estimate the longest possible probate is in Arizona?

A gentleman at my workshop told me that it took his family 20 years to get through probate. Two or three weeks ago, another guy at a workshop told everyone there that it took his family seven years to get through probate. Those are radical examples, but they are not isolated incidents. They happen all the time. The average length that I see people spending, is a year or two, even with a simplified flow through probate.

How much do you think the most expensive probate cost might cost in Arizona?

It can be really expensive. In my workshop, I show a percentage where AARP estimates it could take 5% to 7% of your estate. It’s hard for people to grasp when you talk about percentages, because people always automatically assume they're going to be on the conservative end of the percentage.

For example, consider an estate that's valued over $100,000, but under a million dollars.

It’s not an exceptionally wealthy family, but they’re not struggling financially either. They're living comfortably.

They pass away and their family finds an extremely optimistic attorney who wants to devote their time and attention to them. They might think, optimistically, that it would take 30 hours to get through probate spaced over six months or a year. In my opinion, that’s unrealistic.

If the lawyer estimates 30 hours for all meetings, drafting, prep work, and court hearings, it seems very optimistic and unlikely. I don't know many attorneys who would guarantee that they can do it for 30 hours. It would likely take 50-60 hours of attorney work.

As a lawyer, if the client doesn’t have a ceiling in what we can spend, we can spend it. I remember in law school, I worked for a guy who did probate, business law, family law, and run-of-the-mill civil cases. He told me, “There is nothing better than a pissed-off client with a lot of money who's wrong.”

So, there isn’t a cap on how expensive probate could be, but I can tell people that conservatively, it's still very expensive.

What do clients ask most at your workshops and how do you answer the question?

The main question that people have is “Do wills actually go through probate in Arizona?” The answer is yes, wills go through probate. People want to know how common it is and I tell them that it is easier for me to tell you how hard it is to avoid going through probate with just a will.

In Arizona, if you have a will, and you don't want to go through probate, then your real estate must have equity in it of $100,000 or less, or you have to have personal property that's valued at $75,000 or less. Additionally, in Arizona, at the age that most people are meeting with me, they have well over $100,000 in value in their house. In the three years of hosting estate planning workshops, I can count on one hand the amount of people that I've met that have wills and likely will not end up going through probate.

What are your three favorite communities that you visit on your workshop schedule?

My favorite place to be is San Tan Valley. That's the community that I live in. I love going because we all have friends in common. I run into them at the grocery store. I see them going to their grandkids' school events because their grandkids go to school with my kids.

Another special place to me is Prescott. It can get pretty cold there during the winter. The people there are very kind. It's reminiscent of a small-town community.

Everything is built out over the town square, which is a big, beautiful courthouse. I love going and my kids love to come along and spend the week there with me.

I absolutely love all the communities I get to go to but those are the ones that stick out most.

Have you ever had to tell a client you couldn't help because they reached out too late?

Someone did reach out to me too late. He's an old family friend of mine, and his grandkids are really good friends.

When he came out to meet with me, and said, “You know what? This is great. I like what I'm hearing. I definitely want to do something. I just want to make sure that my kids are on the same page with me.”

He decided not to move forward at that time. A week later, he was in a car accident and passed away. It was really tragic.

Luckily, he had some documents in place and it wasn't a complete travesty as far as the estate planning went. If he had reached out a month or two earlier, we would have been able to ensure that things were up to date and that his estate was entirely prepared.